questions

[incandescens]

(hitting the absinthe, mm)

Delightful. Managed to obtain several books today, including two Usagi Yojimbo (vols 2 and 6) that I didn't have, the latest Dying Earth sourcebook, the latest issue of Promethea, etc . . . Am now dipping my brain in all these things, and trying to write Yami no Matsuei fanfic, with a bit of absinthe to assist the process.

Have made registration for Yaoi-con. At least this year I have more understanding of what it will be like. (Should I laugh manically? No, probably not, but I will note that there is not that much difference between manic fans of one thing and another. Yes, rpg fans do clump together and drink too much and get into discussions which they will regret in the morning.)

Hm. I'm a yaoi fan (and I'm sure that most of the regular readers of this lj will know what I mean by that) but I am also a het fan, and a yuri fan, and if the people who write yaoi fanfic/doujinshi/manga wrote het or yuri stuff with as much interest in the female characters, acknowledgement of their personality, characterisation, elegance, and, by god, affection, then I would be buying that just as readily. The recent surge in slash fanfic is notable, especially on ljs, or perhaps I should say, on those ljs with which I often come into contact. (Isn't it sad? I feel the urge to correct that sentence to "with which" rather than making it "which I happen to come into contact with".) Is it pushing things too far to wonder if we would get more femslash (and isn't it interesting to see how that word is a modification on the original?) or even straight fanfiction, were the female characters as interesting as the male ones, in everything from manga to anime to films to fiction to -- to wherever?

And who do we blame for that? And what do we do about that?

Comments

[newbabyfly.livejournal.com]

That's the problem I'm having/had with my comic. I *want* to have interesting female characters, but when I started the story, I wasn't sure of how to do it. I stuck mostly to male ones because I didn't want to create stereotypical female roles XD; (Still doesn't know what to do with Gabby, unfortunately T____T) The of course later, I started to realize that creating interesting female charaters isn't really very different from creating male ones. Something to work on in the future/for furture projects. I will suceeeeed! X3

And damn you!! I soooo wanna go to Yaoi-con ;______;!

[incandescens]

Then of course later, I started to realize that creating interesting female charaters isn't really very different from creating male ones.

As in, people are people? No, that's too easy an answer and leaves out a lot of shades. If I had an answer on where personality/character/culture/gender intersect, I'd be a better writer than I am. :)

[newbabyfly.livejournal.com]

true, true. I personally think I'm a crappy writer, which is why I draw instead XD I suppose what I'm getting at is more just that there is a ton of variation/shades in peeple's personalities, and I was at one point thinking of female characters more strictly in typically defined roles that are common place in writing or whatever more so than I was for male characters. Things overlap on a ton of different levels, and it has different effects on everyone, and the gender is one thing that will effect it. But only one among maaany other things I was forgetting about.

... I have no idea where I'm going with this really. XD; I'm much better at breaking down and analysizing a person's personality, building them up takes an entirely different approach unfortunately. >_@

[incandescens]

I suppose what I'm getting at is more just that there is a ton of variation/shades in peeple's personalities, and I was at one point thinking of female characters more strictly in typically defined roles that are common place in writing or whatever more so than I was for male characters.

I think it's almost the reverse of what we're doing when we write yaoi or slash. When we do that, we're sometimes making it possible for some of the male characters to have roles beyond their "strictly masculine" ones. We need to make sure we don't restrict the female characters in reverse, so to speak.

And hi there. :)

[newbabyfly.livejournal.com]

I also just realized that the above was probably the first comment I'd made on your lj (I think?) though I'd been stalking ye for a while XD; So er, yeah. A much belated Hi! ^___^

[(Anonymous)]

Would we? Utena is a series where what happens between the female characters is far more interesting to me than what happens between the male ones, but I wouldn't write fic for it. The problem in any other series I know is that there's one good female character one might want to write about and nobody to write about her with. Well, there's Servalan, to prove it can be done. But until we get the series where there are two Servalans to show just *how* it can be done, I'll have trouble envisioning it.

(My problem is that women are always so much the essence of here-and-now. They don't do fun archetypes one can reference for energy and entertainment. Male archetypes ping. Female archetypes bore. A problem.)
-mjj

[incandescens]

In Blake's Seven there was also Cally, but half the time Cally might as well have been a male character for all that gender came into it. (Go Cally, say I.) Now I'm half tempted to write Servalan/Cally to see if it could be done. The fact that both of them could be seen as having an interest in Avon (male, who varied between seme and sasoi uke) would be pure icing on the cake.

(My problem is that women are always so much the essence of here-and-now. They don't do fun archetypes one can reference for energy and entertainment. Male archetypes ping. Female archetypes bore. A problem.)

Say rather that the men got to all the good archetypes first. :) If we're having to define cool female characters/archetypes by saying they're "as good as" the already extant male ones, one could say that's the problem restated in different terms.

[mikeneko.livejournal.com]

(Isn't it sad? I feel the urge to correct that sentence to "with which" rather than making it "which I happen to come into contact with".)
Dunno. To me, it's more sad that I understand that urge.

We-ell, actually, there's a great outpouring of het fanfic in which the writers attempt to do what you've described. However, it falls under the rubric of "Mary Sue." As people are socialized into fanfic communities and gain a better understanding of the conventions, they develop a horror of it and will go to insane lengths to avoid any semblance of it. So the female fanfic characters are chucked, baby and bathwater, as all they do tend to be invested with some degree of the writer when that writer happens to be female.

Of course, these writers do the *exact same thing* with their male characters. But, for reasons unknown, they don't recognize they're doing it. (Mmm. A certain diabetes-inducing multi-chapter extravaganza over on ffn leaps immediately to mind here. :) For me, the question is why I find it intrinsically less interesting when people write in an obviously "feminine" fashion. This comprises transforming unsympathetic characters into kinder, gentler, and far more caring versions of themselves; grafting stereotypically "female" psychological situations into the plot; overuse of indirect constructions and modifiers in sentences; and so on. In a sense, they're already writing so-called femslash, y'know?

[incandescens]

Dunno. To me, it's more sad that I understand that urge.

You're an editor; I'm an edited; we both know our duties.

So the female fanfic characters are chucked, baby and bathwater, as all they do tend to be invested with some degree of the writer when that writer happens to be female.

I think that is part of the problem. A lot of writers revolt from everything that they conceive as associated, and fail (as you say later) to notice where they are piling on the "feminine".

[pureyaoi.livejournal.com]

Because it is after 1 AM here, and I am not as eloquent as your other readers, the only thing I'm thinking right now is: Will anyone be blessed with Tenpou-kisses at this year's Yaoi-Con? Ah, we can only dream. :)

[incandescens]

(snerks) There was a very good Goujun there last year, too . . .

[avalonjones.livejournal.com]

oooOOOoooo, someone doing cosplay Goujun? I'm very close to squealing... I've only ever seen one Saiyuki costume stateside, and that was someone dressed as Goku at AnimeCentral last year. Of course, I don't go to many cons anymore, and obviously not the right ones (last time I was at YaoiCon, nobody had heard of Saiyuki). Have seen photos of some really amazing Japanese Saiyuki cosplayers, though (saw a woman dressed as Kanzeon last year at Comiket, and very nearly fell to my knees in front of her).

[incandescens]

There were several excellent Saiyuki cosplayers at Yaoi-con last year, including said Goujun, but then there were lots of excellent cosplayers in general. Some amazing stuff.

[marith.livejournal.com]

Hmm. When I finally get around to writing more *mumble*, there are lots of female character possibilities. Three story ideas I have on the back burner:

a WK "Snow Queen" parallel starring Aya-chan as Gerda
a WK Mary Sue that *won't* actually repel people (challenge)
a very quiet relationship between Lulu and Auron in FFX

But none of these are f/f and two may not involve sex at all.
m/m sex is just...more interesting. *sheepish* Perhaps we need more lesbian and bisexual authors. scribblemoose certainly does a good job of developing the female characters, and their relationships, in her FF8 stories.

What moves me to write fanfic is the sense of a hole in the original story - something that could be developed but isn't. There are certainly fewer unexplored romantic plotlines involving female characters than between male ones...but that seems like a really lame reason not to write about women in general. And yet I don't do it as a rule. Hrm.

There are worthwhile female characters out there. Perhaps what we do about that is to write about them in such a way that the yaoi-crazed fangirls say "She's so COOL!" and not "she's getting in the way of the boys!". If that's possible.

[incandescens]

Perhaps we need more lesbian and bisexual authors.

But doesn't that imply that we should be getting gay men to write yaoi? :)

What moves me to write fanfic is the sense of a hole in the original story - something that could be developed but isn't. There are certainly fewer unexplored romantic plotlines involving female characters than between male ones...but that seems like a really lame reason not to write about women in general.

I'd agree that there is a shortage of unexplored or even interesting female characters. That leads round to people who write the original stories/films/series, and the question of why the cast is generally 90% male, perhaps.

There are worthwhile female characters out there. Perhaps what we do about that is to write about them in such a way that the yaoi-crazed fangirls say "She's so COOL!" and not "she's getting in the way of the boys!". If that's possible.

I would like to think that it is possible. I'm not anti-yaoi, or anti-male-relationships.

[archangelbeth]

Hm.... I suspect that part of the Yaoi appeal, for me, is that there is a plentiful supply of pretty guys (the better to plop myself in their heads admiring each other), who clearly have UST issues, and a scarcity of females with UST issues which aren't clearly defined and directed.

I mean, consider Saiyuki -- there's really only a couple of strong female hero-types. (And only a couple of even passing strong villainess types, and they're creepy -- though they do have yuri UST going, I believe? One-sided UST, at least?) And one of them is underage-sorta (though a little fic with her and a certain other "underage-sorta" might be sweet), while the other's allegiances are fairly clearly spelled out in a way that makes it difficult to pair her up any other way -- or even that one, since so much of her is tied up in being USTy. There needs to be a way to preserve the delicious angst if one is going to pair her off at all.

[You've heard of UST, right? Unresolved Sexual Tension. I had not heard of it at one point, and now I love the term. It's like LUST only unacknowledged on some level.]

Or GetBackers -- the UST or general ST stuff seems to be reserved for the guys. Hevn is all-business 99% of the time, a certain kid is only really given one potential pairing (though I could work with some other stuff; she's not really a match for any of the others... but now I'm getting ideas), and Lady Poison's relationship issues with Ban are A: the most obsessive and unresolved of her interactions with anyone, and B: not really sexual so much as platonic. (And none of them have much chemistry with each other. Though there's so tantalizingly little done with that secondary character that a little yuri worked quite well when you wrote it, as I recall?)

On the other hand, now that I've peered at the various motivations, I have a few ideas. Some of them may require massive viewings, though, to reach the right ficness saturation.

[incandescens]

. . . a plentiful supply of pretty guys (the better to plop myself in their heads admiring each other), who clearly have UST issues, and a scarcity of females with UST issues which aren't clearly defined and directed.

(nods) Yes. The men could be in a relationship with anyone. The women have to be passionately devoted to one person -- or possibly two, if we're to have a dramatic love triangle. Feh.

And yes, I know of UST. :)

Or GetBackers -- the UST or general ST stuff seems to be reserved for the guys.

As you say. The female characters are either asexual (despite being very demonstrative in their secondary sexual characteristics), monogamous, as-yet-too-young to some extent, or only making very rare appearances.

On the other hand, now that I've peered at the various motivations, I have a few ideas. Some of them may require massive viewings, though, to reach the right ficness saturation.

Oh well, if you expect me to argue against that . . .

[archangelbeth]

Having Hevn be all-business, despite the anatomy, is actually a neat ploy. It makes her much more amusing as a character than Hevn-as-sexually-active would be. Mind, it's hopeless for yuri or het, because, well... that breaks the concept! Yuri actually breaks it slightly less badly, but who are we going to pair her with? There's no chemistry with either of the main female lot, and I'm not sure Ms. Pyrokinetic is her type. You'd have to use a new character, likely, and then you get into Mary Sueness, or "we're reading this for the canon characters, so this one is boring" and the like.

That said, I have this sad feeling I'd tend to write Mr. and Ms. Professional together, if I did any het there. Because there's that spark of logic (at least to my twisted brain), as well as the jaw-droppingly "That is so unthinkable."

Though implying it is far more entertaining.

As for massive viewings and saturation, well, if I have some time...

[incandescens]

Even if there's a half-temptation to write a piece for "Natsumi asks Hevn to explain to her about sex..."

That said, I have this sad feeling I'd tend to write Mr. and Ms. Professional together, if I did any het there. Because there's that spark of logic (at least to my twisted brain), as well as the jaw-droppingly "That is so unthinkable."

There's always Paul, who is also a Professional, no? But that lacks the, well, unthinkable energy.

Though implying it is far more entertaining. As for massive viewings and saturation, well, if I have some time...

Bear up. Preschool is nearly here.

[archangelbeth]

Muwhahaha! That one's yours to write. O:>

Paul... Hm. I had not thought of him. I think he's asexual, too? Or at least there's no chemistry there. His shadowy past is in his past, and he likes it there. Good sort to settle down with -- aside from the debt the GBs owe him -- but that's a 'happily ever after' and not a sexy piece. O:>

Though one could do a very nice piece with him and Himiko, as a one-shot drabble, probably played for the jaw-dropping reaction of outsiders. (Or, if one set one's mind to it, something pertaining exactly to that stability. Hm.)

Mmm. Preschool. Which we need to sign her up for. Tomorrow if I'm not sick. *cry*

[solaas.livejournal.com]

Paul... Hm. I had not thought of him. I think he's asexual, too?

Oh, come ON!! 1) He's a hunk, and 2) if you want hetslash for him, do remember that at SOME point, Natsumi must have had a job interview with him...

[incandescens]

PAUL : So, will you be disturbed if some of our customers are very fond of each other?
NATSUMI : Of course not!
PAUL : Even if they're both male?
NATSUMI : Everyone should be friendly, shouldn't they?
PAUL : (ticks off TOTALLY INNOCENT box) You're hired.

[incandescens]

Paul/Himiko... um. In some ways I could see that, while in others my brain twitches at the very thought. If Paul did have sex with one of the "regulars", I think it'd be in very much an older-to-younger mode. Hm.

(hugs re tomorrow) Get well. Take her to school. Go home. Put your feet up and enjoy the silence.

[summer-queen.livejournal.com]

Hm. While I read exclusively yaoi (be it sexed up or lacking sex) fan fic today, I started with het some time back. And the female characters were every bit as interesting as the male ones, in those. I don't like reading fics from shows I don't know well, so as long as I keep watching anime dominated by male characters, it's unlikey I'd personally start branching into f/f territory (though m/f is always a possibility).

I think there's a variety of factors at work. As was already pointed out, the shows/manga we (well, a general BL fandom we) are drawn to feature primarily male characters, and seem to rarely have much in the way of strong, interesting female characters. And even less, strong female characters with tension between them and another strong female character (or even between them and the guys, for the most part).

And even when there are, and even if I like the characters (Utena/Anthy), like mjj, I don't have much interest in reading/writing fic about them. I just don't. Of course, that could be changed were someone to present me an out of this world fic featuring them, but I'm not going to cross the street to find one. (Utena is perhaps a poor choice, as I've only even read one yaoi fic I even liked -- I've apparently little desire to see an alternate take on things).

I think to find the good het and f/f fics you'll have to venture outside your normal fandoms and into those based on shows with a) more fully-developed female characters and b) less yaoi fodder.

[incandescens]

I think to find the good het and f/f fics you'll have to venture outside your normal fandoms and into those based on shows with a) more fully-developed female characters and b) less yaoi fodder.

You may have a point there. :)

[kickinpants.livejournal.com]

I think that's the crux of it- finding the series with strong women you wish to write about. Although you're doing a fine job of letting the women shine more in your GB stories.

Take Sailor Moon, for instance, a shoujo comic/anime for young girls starring young girls/women. Writers had their fill of pairings, I'm sure, m/f, f/f, and also m/m.

But then, that is a series considered mostly for younger viewers. So, does the Sailor Moon writing girl grow up to write yaoi, I wonder...

[(Anonymous)]

Now SM had Haruka and Michiru who by me were as interesting as any male yaoi pairing around. If I had to say why, it'd be because there was angst abounding and none of it was based in their relationship. Personal demons, personal choices made reluctantly, resolving same. Human, not female, stuff.

But Beth's point about Yaone made me wonder. There's a character with UST coming out her ears, exactly what we say inspires people to write m/m- 'they *should* be together'- that still doesn't inspire people to write m/f. Why not? I think it's the givens again- Yaone is Woman Pining For Male. Giving her Male does nothing new and different as the culture defines it. But give Dokugakuji the Male and somehow there's still a sense of transgression, of flouting the givens that the manga creator or the greater society has laid down. DokuxKou has an energy that Yaone x Kou doesn't.
-mjj

[kickinpants.livejournal.com]

DokuxKou has an energy that Yaone x Kou doesn't.

But DokuKou has this energy that's probably akin to that real life story of the Tokugawa Shogun who, as a young man, was a "bottom". Although real men have less set sex roles than what yaoi writers place on them, the Shogun as bottom adds this interesting layer of power and who places it when and where. Doku is bigger than Kou, but he is Kou's servant. Also, Doku is linked to Kou's enemies by blood, but serves Kou so selflessly. Their relationship has all these angles that don't seem exhausted, unlike when you look at it from Yaone's point, of the woman who loves the man she's serving.

[incandescens]

Hm. Sidenote. You often seem in shoujo to get the theme of "group of young men serving girl" (and you then get yaoi-betwixt-the-young-men, but that's another story) but you don't have any transgressive energy there when she ends up Happy Ever After with one of the men. However, she (usually) hasn't been placed over them due to any actual ability or sacrifice or birth or aristocracy or anything concrete; it's just a case of "chosen by the gods" or "pure heart" or something. Also, come to think of it, she doesn't tend to have any real actual authority in terms of being able to command and having it obeyed. So no boundary there to transgress.

[incandescens]

Human, not female, stuff.

I'm afraid you've got it very right there.

As to Yaone/Kou, there's also the End Of Story implied. Let me think how to put that. Yaone gets Kou. End of story. They live happily ever after. Nowhere else to go, the way it's been laid out, unless you want to write about them living happily ever after. That's not going to happen with Doku (or at least, not in the same way) and there's so much more energy innate in that. (Same complaint as with Kou getting restored, in a way -- "but there was so much more potential in him staying barcoded!")

[archangelbeth]

That, and Doku doesn't have this Honorable UST thing going in the same way. The chemistry is different. I mean... Give Yaone someone else, and she's betraying her ONE TRUE PAIRING LOVE. Give her the one true love, and... where's the tension? She'd be too happy. It's a happy ending.

(Unless, of course, she decides she's going to be thinking about "the other one" no matter which one she gets, which -- as you point out -- immediately acquires the energy of trangression (threesome! From two different sides!) again.)

[(Anonymous)]

Which is probably why I find that energy present in Yaone/ Hakkai.
But that / sign gets us to the thing TTG was saying about the third shogun (nasty piece of goods him, BTW) bottoming as a boy. There's no question of who's seme and uke, and hence any possible tension with the social roles, in m/f. Whatever the status of the partners He penetrates Her. Manage to make m/f sex a negotiable deal of who does what to whom, without recourse to extreme artificiality, and watch the erotometer rise. I think it'd only work if it's a very upper status woman (= almost the same thing as a man) agreeing to bottom to a much lower-status man in spite of what the social roles say she should do. For obvious reasons, Gyokumen and Nii don't come under that rubric.
-mjj

[incandescens]

Which is probably why I find that energy present in Yaone/ Hakkai.

(nods) And it's really very personal to both of them. Even if Kougaiji and Gojou and so on might have absolutely no problem with it, Yaone and Hakkai would be aware that this was Not Right, hence the energy.

Manage to make m/f sex a negotiable deal of who does what to whom, without recourse to extreme artificiality, and watch the erotometer rise. I think it'd only work if it's a very upper status woman (= almost the same thing as a man) agreeing to bottom to a much lower-status man in spite of what the social roles say she should do. For obvious reasons, Gyokumen and Nii don't come under that rubric.

(Nii's a special case.) Again, Servalan would have fitted for that, because she was very high-status, but it's rare (in my limited experience) to come across a high-status woman in anime/manga who simultaneously has the presence and personal power to be a challenge to the prospective partner. Most of the high-status women I've seen Simply Wouldn't Do Such A Thing.

[incandescens]

Thanks.

As to Sailor Moon -- I've seen truckloads of yaoi stuff based on it, whether Kunzite/Zoicite, Nephrite/Jadeite, Mamoru/Anyone, Anyone/Mamoru, Etc/Etc, but I'm not sure whether that was the older end of the SM fandom who grew into it from younger innocence, or whether it was like that from the beginning, so to speak.

(Uranus/Neptune forever!)

[mikeneko.livejournal.com]

But then, that is a series considered mostly for younger viewers. So, does the Sailor Moon writing girl grow up to write yaoi, I wonder...

Happy pedantic note. A considerable portion of SM fandom was *male* -- and not young, either -- both here and there. In fact, the population of the old Magical Girls ML was nearly all men. The only obsessive otaku I knew who were buying SM, Wedding Peach, Hime-chan, Creamy Mami (etc., etc.) LDs were guys. CLAMP's audience was primarily female until they did the MKR series; note all the inclusions (creepy-kawaii sailor-fuku loli-service plus mecha) targeted to appeal to the bank accounts of the male anime fen with greater disposable income.

However. Men are a tiny minority in Western fanfiction. The gay ones write slash, and the nongay ones write het (gen or porn). I personally can't think of any examples I've encountered of English-language "femslash" or yuri written by a man (including the Buffy/Faith, Willow/Tara brigades). There's no flip-side for comparisons here.

(ah damn, i'm s'posed to be working, damn damn damn)

[incandescens]

CLAMP's audience was primarily female until they did the MKR series; note all the inclusions (creepy-kawaii sailor-fuku loli-service plus mecha) targeted to appeal to the bank accounts of the male anime fen with greater disposable income. I didn't know that, but it makes a lot of sense now you explain it. ;) There's clearly material here for a thesis or two . . . assuming we can define terms, of course.